Local: Logo numbers not adding up
According to Word on the Street, Converse Marketing’s work to create a new logo for the City of Peoria has cost more than $120,000. But the city is “contractually obligated” to pay only $30,000.
So, is Converse going to be paid for this work? Are they donating it? Will they come to the city later asking for more money? Considering the entire segment is about the cost of the work, this should have been explained. There are too many articles in the Journal Star recently with these sorts of unanswered questions.
Is the work Converse has done “worth” $30,000 or even $130,000? I don’t have the faintest idea what the going rates are for this sort of work. I imagine that graphic design is a lot like writing, in that people cannot imagine paying money for it. Everyone thinks they know how to do it, or thinks they can get their cousin to do it on the cheap. Some folks think there should have been a contest for school children.
This is an attitude common among people who don’t have a marketable skill of their own.
October 13th, 2008 at 7:35 am
I had many of the same questions when reading this…..what’s being implied? That they did us a favor by only charging $30,000 or that they will be back for more to cover their “time”?
However, I don’t think you can fault the PJS too much for not answering the question, this piece of news was in the Word on the Street. As most people realize who read this column, it is typically filled with gossip, half-truths, and spin designed to create controversy or stir the pot and not necessary to inform the reading public.
October 13th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Now, now. Play nice. The entire PJS staff is overworked. Some stuff slips through the cracks.
October 13th, 2008 at 8:01 am
I was shocked to find out they charged $30,000 for those logos. I do graphic design as a paying hobby and probably could have done that.
Then again, I’m amazed to find out what people charge for these types of things.
October 13th, 2008 at 10:34 am
“This is an attitude common among people who don’t have a marketable skill of their own.”
I used to do digital graphic design on the side, and was generally pretty good at it. Ideas are what’s essential in this field. Especially when designing digitally, virtually everything is a procedure which can be carried out and repeated as many times as necessary.
What Converse Marketing lacked were ideas, not technical skill. The rest of us have ideas, but we weren’t even asked.
October 13th, 2008 at 11:01 am
I love the supposed expertise of people on these blogs who used to “do digital graphic design on the side.” This is like saying you know how to build a bridge because you built an extension on your garage. Or you know how to perform surgery because you pulled a splinter out of your kid’s toe.
If you were good enough to do it, someone would have hired you to do it full time. If not, you’re a hack. Admit it, already. “On the side” is a euphamism for “this is not my core competency.”
Professional designers have degrees in what they do. They are constantly expanding their skills and knowledge base — just like any other kind of real professional. Peoria has a great community of wonderful, talented designers working in a number of great agencies. They do solid work and win national and international acclaim for that work. Pretenders like postsmimian, who think they’re designers because they own a Mac, generally aren’t among them.
If you don’t like the ideas you’ve seen so far, that’s fine. That’s understandable. But there were probably a millions ideas created for this project and somebody paying the bills pointed those ideas in the direction we’re now seeing. That’s generally how these kinds of things work. I’d love to see the other ideas, though…and I’d love to hear yours, postsimian. You say you weren’t asked? Well, I’m asking. What’s your earth-shattering “on the side” idea?
October 13th, 2008 at 11:22 am
“However, I don’t think you can fault the PJS too much for not answering the question, this piece of news was in the Word on the Street. As most people realize who read this column, it is typically filled with gossip, half-truths, and spin designed to create controversy or stir the pot and not necessary to inform the reading public.”
So essentially you are saying the Word On The Street is a blog in print form.
October 13th, 2008 at 11:49 am
PeoriaIllinoisan….exactly; just not as timely.
It’s more of the National Enquirer approach to journalism….sensationalism, misrepresentation of facts, stretttttttttching the truth, etc. – but every once in a while (just like with the Edwards) story there is some real news in it. I enjoy reading it every week, but have come to learn that it represents the writer’s bias and is far from hard news reporting.
October 13th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Whew, hello hubris. Graphic design was just compared to structural engineering are surgery. Keep on feeding that ego.
Yes, I did graphic design on the side as I was a web developer and needed to know how to make websites which looked good without losing functionality. This included using Flash, Photoshop, Adobe Premier and Illustrator on a regular basis. At any rate, “on the side” means “not something I was particularly interested in.” Sorry I hurt your e-feelings by referring to the banality of your craft.
For the record, I would never purchase a Mac. Way to fail at life.
October 13th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Hey now..no need to attack macs! Just because they require less knowledge of how they actually work, doesn’t mean they are inferior. I find them particularly useful and I can focus more on getting my work done than on fixing my computer system.
October 13th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
It’s more of a principled stand against Apple’s traditionally closed technology (I realize this has become less of an issue since switching to an Intel platform). Nothing against Mac users
October 13th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Yeah, yeah, yeah, postsimian. So what’s your idea?
Should be a breeze for a hobbiest like yourself to rip out something poweful and stimulating. After all, you have Photoshop, right?
George Burns once said that a critic is little more than a eunic at a gangbang. So prove him wrong, postsimian. Post up your work if you have a pair. The party’s waiting…
October 13th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Okay, random design snob #903823, here you go:
First, I would use a minimalist design, perhaps a silhouette, because it’s a logo, not a tribute. The downtown skyline would be the prominent element with the Murray Baker bridge below. These are things people recognize and frequently associate with the city.
Converse appears to have followed the same guidelines but to different effect.
What I would not use are stylized caricatures of it as seen in a few of the proposed designs over at logopeoria.com. They look like cheapass greeting card software clip art. Also, I wouldn’t use gimmicks such as exclamation points which will only stick out in people’s minds because of the magnitude of their obnoxiousness.
For the typeface, I would use something similar to what is used in the swirl-design example, or the one with the round design. Wavy design, changing fonts and making them boldfaced halfway through a logo is the graphical equivalent of watching a badger eat an abortion, at least the way it was done in the choices we were given.
The blue and red chosen for the logos we were shown were the only decent color choices for Peoria. I would use one or the other, but not both, in my palette. The other color would probably be white. I would put the visual elements within an ellipse, perhaps letting them fall outside the lines with a color inversion, unless it looked too “busy” for a minimalist intent.
The other way I would do it would be similar to the skyline/city of Peor!a logo, but I’d eliminate the overlapping lines and get rid of the cheesy exclamation point.
—–
There you have it, oh self-important stereotypical design snob. I’d slap a draft together for you if I weren’t at work and gave a shit. Now that I know I can earn $30,000 for something a graphic design undergrad could accomplish in an afternoon, my work comes with a price tag.
October 13th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
The difference between a professional graphic designer and a hobbyist or someone who does web design because he has to in order to complete a web project, is the difference between night and day.
Also keep in mind that the design company originally created something like 60+ logos for the city to choose from.
October 13th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Let me see if I’ve interpreted this correctly, postsimian. After all, I’m just a stereotypical designer, so, you know, I don’t do words too well.
You suggest a logo that shows a silhouette of the skyline and bridge, using only one color (blue or red), showing the name in a simple, san-serif font. Did I get that right? Then you’d drop it all inside a slanted circular shape, just for giggles.
Wow. My nipples get hard just picturing it. The city must be kicking themselves for not having though of this sooner!
I may not be in love with all the ideas I’ve seen so far — though, in fairness, there are a couple I like — but I have to say your stunning conceptual skills have certainly earned you the right to denigrate the entire graphic design profession and place yourself on a pedestal above us all.
Now, please, for the sake of us all, make this masterpiece a reality, postsimian. Create it! Let’s see it in real color so we can put all these other “badgers eating an abortion” designs to rest.
October 13th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
I don’t hear any ideas coming from you, other than defense of the cookie-cutter images we’ve seen so far. Put up or shut up, buddy.
October 13th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Hm.
Might we assume by your tone, postsimian, that you don’t like having your creative ideas ridiculed publically by complete strangers?
Now imagine having public blogs ripping the crud out of your Web development work (or whatever it is, exactly, you do) — especially by people who have no idea the amount of effort and consideration you’ve put into it. They don’t know your client. They don’t know the parameters you’ve been given. But they posture as if they’re experts on EVERY possible subject and trash your hard work anyway. Your friends read what they say about you. Your kids read what they’re saying about you. And you can’t even defend yourself — not that you should even have to.
Doesn’t sound like fun anymore, does it, big shot.
I guarantee the designers working on this project are average, everyday people that work hard, have families, and like to occasionally be appreciated for their efforts. Just like you, postsimian. And they do not get paid enough (read: professional athletes) to be ripped to shreds by blow-hard, know-nothings like yourself.
Like I said, if you have a better idea, produce it. Let people decide for themselves. But quit ripping an entire industry, full of gifted, talented, hard-working individuals (who just might be your neighbors) because you think you’re better than they are. Frankly, it makes you seem small.
I’m okay with the work Converse did. I’ve never said otherwise.
October 13th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Hmmmm….let’s turn this discussion around…maybe we should see some enterprising individuals who don’t like the current choices develop their own and see if Billy will post them on here for review. Heck let’s make it a real competition and see if 10 or 20 individuals in the community would develop something for consideration. While we don’t have much time, perhaps something will come out of it that will add to the designs already developed.
I’d also be in favor of the City posting all 80 some designs that were originally developed for voting by the public. Can’t hurt.
I’m not thrilled with the current choices; but also know that I couldn’t do better. I know a good one when I see it (or at least one that resonates / connects with me) but I’m not getting that from these. I actually like the current logo but agree it could use some updating.
October 13th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Just because you own and can use a table saw doesn’t make you a master carpenter. Owning a computer that has design software doesn’t make you a master designer. Graphic design is a real discipline that requires a ton of work and experience and takes many years before you’re really good at it, just like any other profession. This concept of opening design up to a contest for kids is as demeaning to graphic designers as it would be if it was suggested that what YOU do was so easy it could be done by children.
October 13th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Ridicule my ideas all you want, I get it all the time. I don’t stifle criticism because someone might get butthurt over it. If the work isn’t what people expected, it ought to be said.
I can’t imagine any of these logos appearing on a business card or on the side of a police car. Some of the designs are corny, plain and simple. I’ve lived in the area my whole life, and one thing that has defined Peoria is this phenomena of self-consciousness the city (hell, the entire area) seems to suffer coupled with an inferiority complex. Even on this very site, Bill Dennis gets his panties in a bunch any time he sees things as innocuous as “it plays in Peoria.” Check out his post from 4/13/2004 for an example of the mindset that has permeated this area:
“Please, please, /please/ don’t think that this is a one stoplight town, with a quaint little town square, were everyone knows everyone else’s name.”
This kind of thinking is commonplace. The city wants to be taken more seriously, wouldn’t you agree? These designs hurt that desire.
There’s a reason why I said the people should have been the first resource. The most important thing to remember is they used taxpayer money to change a logo I don’t recall anybody asking to be changed. People were asked what ought to go into the logo back in May, but only after the city council decided to approve forking over $30,000 for a new one. The least they could have done was conducted a poll to see whether this was even desirable, then (as I’ve said numerous times elsewhere) open the process to the public so that talented people in the area could take a crack at it. Didn’t happen. That’s what gets me the most.
Anyway, if saying I’m somewhat familiar with the process is the same as posturing as an expert, it sounds to me like someone is insecure. I guess I can understand that. I remember the days when everyone with a geocities page called themselves web designers, making it virtually impossible to get hired. Anyway, if you’re taking it personally, keep in mind people have mainly been directing their criticism at the company–not the designers–and at the city council.
If saying Converse didn’t have any ideas is the equivalent of bashing on an entire industry, someone needs to grow up and learn to take criticism. Like it or not, my description of the job is accurate. Digital design is about ideas implemented through procedures. Comparing it to surgery and bridge construction is still hubris and makes your trade seem banal. Don’t like the description? Don’t make the comparisons. I don’t have a problem with the industry or even graphic designers. I do have a problem with elitist quasi-art snobs thinking the world would fall apart without them.
October 13th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Let’s say that the design firm’s going rate is $110/hour, which seems to be ballpark (maybe a little on the low side) for a design firm/ad agency’s hourly rate in this market.
At that rate, that’s about 275 hours of time, or about seven weeks of manhours, to hit $30,000.
TWO-HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-FIVE HOURS TO DESIGN A FRIGGIN’ LOGO?
I mean, really, when you think about it, how much work goes into it? All the design firm has to do is attend multiple client input meetings, conduct interviews/focus groups, compile the interviews, develop a report on the findings, present the findings, develop creative briefs based on the findings, do first round of designs, do second round of designs, do third round of designs, do fourth round of designs, do fifth round of designs, do sixth round of designs, do a few more rounds of designs, go back to the third round of designs because that’s what the client’s wife liked the best, revise the third round of designs four times, then create a website with backend database capabilities that allow people to vote on the designs, go through eight rounds of client revisions on the website design, compile the results of the web voting, present the final selection, meet with vendors to ensure the selected logo will reproduce in embroidery and other applications, design a logo usage guide, make seven rounds of revisions to it, supervise its printing, prepare final logo files and distribute those to umpteen different departments in the city.
Come to think of it, I’d say that process would probably take at least seven weeks of someone’s time.
October 13th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Isn’t the reason that you hire a local firm is so you don’t have to conduct 100 interviews of the local town people?
October 13th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
In an open contest, interviews are not necessary. People would create a logo, then submit it along with their name, address and phone number. It is not hard to set up.
Then, the submissions could be judged by a committee, with the obviously unqualified submissions thrown out while the more professional entries are submitted to the public and voted on in a number of rounds. People vote on the final submissions, which then gets approved by the city council and BANG: we have a new logo.
That this would be far less expensive than hiring a private firm, which may have taken as much as $90,000 in losses to create what they’ve revealed, is no contest.
October 13th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
“Guy” your arrogance is matched only by your hostility. Could we have a bit of civility here?
October 13th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Yeah, BANG. Just like that.
Then the blowhards would complain about what a rinky-dink amateur hour the logo design process was, and how the city can’t do anything right, and that our city’s image DESERVES to be professionally represented, and not treated like some junior-high art class project.
And how there are plenty of good design firms right here in Peoria, and if the city is so concerned with economic development, why couldn’t they have thrown a bone to a local firm in a down economy.
And how the voting was unfair because somebody’s church or workplace or ninth-grade class organized a voting campaign to ensure that logo #7B was the winner, even though nobody really liked that one a whole lot to begin with.
And then they’ll pitch a fit about how the winning logo was created by the son of the best friend of So-and-So who’s the director of the Such-and-Such Department at City Hall, and how there must have been some kind of undue influence in the selection process.
Then somebody will come along and claim that the selected artists did not accurately reflect the ethnic diversity of the community and that the selection process was racially biased.
And then whole process gets lampooned at the Gridiron Dinner and there’s a big dustup because the kid who designed the logo in the first place gets his feelings hurt.
But hey, we didn’t have to spend $30,000, which is really not a significant amount of money to people who do this for a living and aren’t doing it out of their mom’s basement on the weekends.
“BANG,” indeed.
October 13th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Super J – an excellent evaluation of how our city and its citizens work. Bravo.
October 13th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
@PostSimian: “but we weren’t even asked.”
Yes we were! They even came to a blogger bash to ask the bloggers.
October 13th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Postsimian is very skilled at defending his position. That he is NOT skilled at is admitting when he had been defeated.
October 13th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Great faith in your neighbors there, Super J.
Eyebrows: When were you asked? Was it prior to March of this year? That’s when they hired Converse. If it was afterwards, that isn’t asking before acting.
I did look around over at pjstar.com and could find nothing which mentioned it. If you have a relevant article, I’d be happy to check it out.
Bill: Not ready to give this one up yet; regardless of how the city went about pursuing this plan, the logos are still insipid and trite. I would find any of them embarrassing if they were selected, some way more than others.
October 14th, 2008 at 12:24 am
“Great faith in your neighbors there, Super J.”
Meanwhile, all the logotypes that you deemed “insipid and trite” were designed by fellow Peorians. Great faith in your neighbors there.
October 14th, 2008 at 7:50 am
Yeah, but at least I have confidence they can do better. Don’t settle for this.
October 14th, 2008 at 9:22 am
“Yeah, but at least I have confidence they can do better. Don’t settle for this.”
So what happens when you solicit the public and they come back with… more of the same? Then what?
You look at the classic logos of our times – CBS, Nike, Apple, Sony, BMW, John Deere, et al. I’m sure at the time that all of them were met with derision by the kangaroo court of know-it-alls who proclaimed that “I could’ve done THAT.”
But at the end of the day, a logo’s long-term value has little to do with graphic design and much to do with the emotional connection to the brand it represents. So for those who are bound and determined to hold this town in contempt, no design will satisfy.
For those who asked, let the skeet shoot begin:
http://www.conversemarketing.com/logo/original_c.html
October 14th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Super J – thanks for posting the link. From reviewing these, I get a better feel of the thought and attempts made. In viewing all of them, I actually like the following ones more:
2
5 (though I’d flip it over)
8
11
18
On many of them, I’d use different colors – perhaps the traditional yellow, blue, and red that comprise the existing logo. I think the value of seeing all of these drafts is that it may inspire someone to merge several options to come up with one that truly resonates with the public and conveys a sense of strength and distinction.
Sometimes less is more as the City of Belfast has decided.
http://www.logodesignlove.com/new-logo-design-belfast-city
My concern is less with the choices we’ve been given to review, as trying to understand what it “says”. Perhaps a simple design with a City tagline “Heart of Illinois” – “Heart of America” (something my descriptive might be good).
I’m not concerned as much about the money spent as getting something that will serve us for the next 25 years.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:57 am
“So what happens when you solicit the public and they come back with… more of the same? Then what?”
We keep the old logo and forget this ever happened.
Has anyone thought about a city seal? Don’t most cities have a seal? Why was that option overlooked?
October 14th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Keep the old logo? It is sad that denigration of Native Americans is so common, it is unremarkable. Can you imagine a logo featuring a brown face, a wide flat nose with a bone through it, and copper tubing wound around its neck? The old logo should never have seen the light of day!
October 14th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Great thread.
I like #3 on the full list. Fresh, original, diverse…way cool.
As to the old logo…I have to admit I never really knew what it was. I wasn’t here when they put it in place in the 70’s and I’ve always wondered…is it the the shape of the city…county…a rock….who knew?
If we wanted to honor our (typed sarcastically) native heritage so much, why’d we drive them out of the state in the first place? All I’m saying is the very idea of putting them on a logo seems hypocritical to me. I’m guessing original Peorians might say: “Gee, thanks for the logo…can we please have our land back now?”
You can read how well we’ve “honored” them (sans logos) here:
http://www.peoriatribe.com/history.php
October 14th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
LurkerGirl: “f we wanted to honor our (typed sarcastically) native heritage so much, why’d we drive them out of the state in the first place?”
I clicked on your link and learned the Peoria Tribe left the area more than 175 years ago.
I think it’s safe to assume that no one who designed the current logo in the late 1970s was around at the time of this diaspora.
October 14th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Um…well…no kidding.
Of course they weren’t around, Billy! Geesh.
Native Americans HAVE been gone a long time. They were driven out of this area — and not in a pretty way — just like they were from virtually every other town, county or patch of woods on this continent. The fact that Indians once lived here hardly makes us unique, does it? For us to pretend we’re honoring their culture with a logo just seems silly to me. That’s all I’m saying.
October 14th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
[...] at the Peoria Pundit, we went back and forth with a number of people over the top eight designs from Converse [...]
October 14th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
To me, there’s only so much you can communicate in a logo. When it comes right down to it, you want it to do one thing — identify our town uniquely from all other towns. I believe several of the logos don’t do that. They can’t stand alone (without “Peoria” written out) because they’re too generic-looking.
An example of a logo that could stand alone as an identification of Peoria would be a representation of City Hall with Sonar Tide in front of it. Some of the rejected logos had something like this. When I (and I think most Peorians) see that image, I immediately think “Peoria,” even without the city’s name next to it. The combination of our unique City Hall and civic artwork is iconic and perfect for a logo.
Plus, they could build other things around it if they felt it was necessary. For instance, they could put it in a circle that looks like a tractor tire as an homage to Peoria’s heavy equipment manufacturing (including, but not limited to Cat) history, and/or they could put a silhouette of the Murray Baker Bridge behind City Hall in the graphic.
October 14th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
CJ’s right–some of the rejected city hall submissions weren’t too shabby.
By the way fellas, I showed the logos to the graphic designer at the company I work for, and he agreed with me on these and other points:
1) He said he had tremendous respect for Converse, but he couldn’t get into any of the final designs
2) Some of the fonts were pretty terrible.
3) Comparing graphic design to engineering and surgery is hubris.
Before he left, he let me know I basically ruined his afternoon by showing him.
What’s that about admitting defeat? I was holding out for a reason. ;D
October 15th, 2008 at 12:38 am
“What’s that about admitting defeat? I was holding out for a reason. ;D”
Dude, you’ve turned this into way more than it needs to be. You’re a little scary competitive, you know? You even took the time to insult me on your own blog. Hopefully I can settle this:
You win.
You’re witty.
You’re experienced.
You’re scary smart.
You’re on TV (kind of).
You’re so alpha.
Your ***** is probably HUGE.
We get it, man.
Now go take a walk. Play a game. Smoke something. Relax.
And tulip…are you familiar with this blog?
October 15th, 2008 at 12:45 am
CJ…I mostly agree, but do you think most Peorians would recognize City Hall as OUR city hall? Let alone the statue?
Super J…you’re killing me. Too funny.
LurkerGirl…I liked that one, too.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:16 am
I blogged it to appease you sensitive designers out there. Remember, I wasn’t the one getting butthurt because someone said they once dabbled in something similar to what I do professionally.
I do have a solution, though: maybe you ought to patent the abstract idea “design” and “aesthetics” while you’re at it. Afterward, be sure to beat up a bunch of third graders for daring to use crayons to make themselves a drawing instead of creating installation art in the atrium of a museum. Good luck with that, Maddox.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Yesterday, work just breezed by.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Postsimian: In person, you are a nice guy. Seriously. In the Blogosphere, however, you REALLY need to learn how to criticize a person’s opinion without attacking the person. As you get older, the inability to do this will be seen as less and and less as youthful exuberance and more like a character flaw. Another thing that comes with age and painful experience is that just because one has the language skills and wit to argue a position to the point that others give up, that doesn’t mean that one’s position in the correct one. In other words, no one WINS an argument on a blog. Thanks for listening.
October 15th, 2008 at 9:40 am
“I showed the logos to the graphic designer at the company I work for”
Yeah, but take that with a grain of salt, because everybody knows that in-house designers aren’t REAL designers.
October 15th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Bill – I’m making the “he started it” plea. No really, I’ll take that into consideration. I honestly don’t take the internet all that seriously. Maybe that accounts for the difference.
Super J – LOL. But… but… he uses a Mac!
October 27th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Sorry to pour salt into old wounds here, but I stumbled across this article today and thought it was marginally relevant:
http://adage.com/article?article_id=132016
“Pepsi would not discuss what it’s paying for the revamp, but experts estimate the cost for a top firm to work five months at north of $1 million.”
One. Million. Dollars. For a logo that’s simply an offshoot of an existing mark and not an original design…